Monday, August 27, 2012

The NYC shootings

CBS has this:

which says that police officials in NYC conclude that all injured parties in the recent shootings outside the Empire State Building were wounded by police gunfire.

Predictably the comments section's first page has several comments by gunzloonz who decry the police' lack of firearms training and posit that they could do a better job of perpblastin' with less damage to the innocent bystanders. They question the professionalism of armed, uniformed officers doing a job that requires both split second decision making AND adhering to the rules governing the use of deadly force. The video that has been aired shows, fairly clearly, that there was very little time between the shooting of the original victim and the police/shooter confrontation. It would have been nice if the police had been able to clear out all of the pedestrian and vehicular traffic in the area and maybe get a range officer to tell them when it was safe to discharge their firearms. In the event the officers who did not know what they were up against or what the gunman might do when confronted made a decision to use deadly force and, fortunately, only killed one person--the shooter.
The gunzloonz will, of course, say that the NYC shootings only underscore the TRUTH; that it's impossible to keep gunz outta NYC or anyplace else, because GUNZLAWZ don't work, one,11ty! Well, firearms laws that are not uniform from state to state and are anything but uniformly applied will NOT be effective--there is no doubt about that. There is also no doubt that the constant drumbeat of lies and distortions from the upper echelon of the NRA and their confederates with organizations such as ALEC do much to fan the fears of the average american.

After every mass shooting there is a spike in calls for more and better policing and a spike in gunz and ammunition sales. The average american is fed a steady diet of horrific tales about rape, murder, robbery and other crimes; crimes which are perpetrated--as far as they are aware--by a mysterious cabal of criminal, armed to the teeth and bent on the wholesale destruction of society. They are not offered reason, they are offered titillation and they seize on it, like a junkie seizes on a fix. The drug is fear and the only antidote, it seems, is hatred.

So, instead of having a calm, rational and civil discussion about some reasonable steps that might be taken to address the problem of there being millions of firearms in the hands of those who are unqualified emotionally, mentally or physically to use them--we have the NRA and its fringe members screeching about having their RIGHT, an unqualified and unlimited RIGHT, to own whatever firearms and ammunition they are able to amass.

If the gunzloonz were stamp hoarders, we could afford to laugh at them.


jadedj said...

Excellent post!

Professor Chaos at The Daily Irritant has also done a piece related to this that you might be interested in...

democommie said...


Welcome to the blog. Thanks for the tip. I will get over to Doctor Chaos blog and see what's there.

democommie said...

I decided to cross post this comment here as well as at Dr. Chaos.

"I'm not sure that the two patrolmen involved in the shooting have "extensive" firearms training. I'm sure that they are both range qualified and have had the basic four hammered into their skulls. There are many people, including gunzloonz, who have done a LOT of training, including simulations of combat, hostage rescues and the like. That being said; training does not = experience. Never has, never will.

The number of cops who engage career violent criminals; enraged spouses/family/friends in domestic disputes; people acting erratically--and in a threatening manner--while under the influence of drugs and the myriad of others with whom they interact on a daily basis and DON'T kill or maim more than a tiny fraction of them speaks to their training in dealing with people, not just firearms.

The average gunzloon (not hunter, not hobbyist, not enacter)--someone whose identity is inextricably bound to his love/need for teh gunz is NOT trained/experienced in the use of non-escalating intervention into tense situations. Self-reports by some of the moronz who infest places like Mikeb302000's blog indicate that THEY will know how to deal with a situation in which they feel threatened. Their method of dealing with the situation generally begins at the level of brandishing their weapon.

And, while teh gunzloonz KNOW how to deal with the "other"* they will often state, explicitly, that policing is not their job (while maintaining that the police are incompetent, lazy, ignorant and homicidally inclined); they are only interested in protecting their safety, their property and those whom they might happen to be with--about whom they have any feelings of affection or community.

I'll take a cop with mediocre firearms training/experience over a gunzloon with zero training/experience in negotiation, criminal psychology, crowd control and other policing procedures--in a NY second.

* The "other" in this case being, well, everybody that they don't know.

dog gone said...

No matter how you cut it, the gunloonz have no factual record on which to assert they would do better.

They are amateurs, not professionals.

Lets face it, most of them are old, white, flabby and crabby; not fit, not supervised, and not insured --- and apparently more than a little delusional.

One of the advantages to leaving law enforcement decisions to law enforcement is that they are insured if they make a mistake -- and mistakes do happen, because no one can reasonably be held to a standard of perfection.

That said, the very nature of purchasing insurance means that there are standards of risk management in effect, and that those insured have to meet criteria of insurability that they will cause the least possible expenditure under that policy. In other words, they have to meet standards that show they are unlikely to make those mistakes, and will follow policies that don't result in the insurance company paying out for mistakes, while at the same time being held to performance standards as a condition of employment by the PD.

It is appearing that the injuries were all or nearly all caused by bullet fragments or fragments that are encompased under the term shrapnel.

If the gun loonz can promise that no shot will send out a splinter of any kind when it hits a target, I'd like to see them deliver on that promise. If they can assure us that they use ammo that will never ever ever splinter or deform in any way, I'd like to examine that ammo. If they can demonstrate they have a better practical understanding of the law, than an on-duty cop, I'd like to see that proven too.

If not, they should shut the fuck up, because they are talking stupid.

democommie said...

If "talking stupid" was sufficient cause for gunzloonz to STFU, mikeb302000 would only have about four commenters.

While I think that a lot of cops at all levels could/should be better trained in the use and NON-USE of firearms, it is passingly rare that LEO's shoot someone, while in uniform, simply because they are pissed off at them. It happens but, as I say, it is a rare occurrence.

Otoh, idiotz wit teh gunz? They manage to shoot people--because they're pissed off at them--with far too great frequency.

dog gone said...

They manage to shoot themselves, often in embarassing places.

Just a day or so ago over on commongunsense, I listed several cases of permitees shooting themselves in their boy bitz,
and there are too numerous cases to mention of guys dropping trou, having their gunz either shoot them in their behind bitz, or in some cases execute an innocent toilet out from under their behinder bitz.

Yeah, somehow that fails to convince me of their infallible judgment or aim.

democommie said...

Maybe what they should have at the firing range is toilet shaped targets?